PART TWO OF TWO/ INTERVIEW OF LEONARD PELTIER
BY DARRIN WOOD, IN LEAVENWORTH PRISON, KANSAS,
JULY 19, 1991

DW: You were heading to Manderson but you ended up at Pine Ridge. How did you feel when you realized you were at Pine Ridge?

LP: I felt stupid. I was really upset with myself, more upset with myself than with anybody else for having let myself be guided by a city-Indian. I should have known better. But it was a little bit terrifying because at the moment I got there the sun was coming up and you could see everything all around. We were in a very visible place, very vulnerable. It was a very tense moment, naturally, besides the fact that I was already really worried, but I didn't say anything. Again, I think I was really more upset with myself than with Bob. I thought for a minute, and knew where I was, and then I knocked on a door.

DW: With this massive hunt on for you and the others...

LP: It was massive but it was also a total invasion (7) of the Pine Ridge Reservation. I remember those police officers and all of them were FBI agents, and everyone was wearing military uniforms, so it didn't look so much like a police investigation as a massive invasion. They were driving around school minibuses that held 15 or 20 people, or more, and all of them carrying automatic M-16 rifles. They were traveling in groups of two or three cars. Anybody who went in or out of the city, they followed them. Following them fast, with the lights on, and if it were nighttime, with spotlights. It's something you see and you think it's an invasion, you're at war. They wanted to scare the community, the Oglala Nation. It backfired on them, because it didn't scare them, it made them mad. Now the whole reservation was ready to line up to tell the tribal government that they had to throw these people off the reservation, or else they'd take up arms. We're going to stop this invasion. It was really the first time that the seven groups of the Sioux Nation united. They all demanded that the State Department put a stop to this occupation of the reservation, or they would start blocking access to their reservations and start a war, because the Oglala Nation was being occupied and invaded . It was the first time since Little Big Horn, so we're talking about almost a hundred years since the Sioux Nation had last united. And they left. Except they left enough people to carry out an investigation. They almost succeeded in starting another Indian war. They were very, very close. The people in the United States and in the world don't know how close it was to full-out war. As someone who was there and directly involved, a lot of leaders of groups came to me, people who were living there on the reservation, and asked me to arm them. They asked me to arm them. If there'd been enough weapons, hundreds of Indians who would have gone to war could have been armed. This is something I've never said to the press before. It's because I know at the bottom of my heart that my struggle is legitimate. If this were a criminal case, hundreds of people would not have come to me to ask me to arm them because they wanted to fight. They wanted to throw out the invaders. Women and men wanted to, including middle-aged folks and teenagers. They were not going to let the wasichu (white men in Lakota) invade their reservations. I didn't have access to it, so I couldn't and I had to tell them the truth. We weren't what the government was saying, a paramilitary group so organized we had connections with communists and the KGB. We didn't have those connections, not even with terrorist groups. We didn't have those contacts, so none of these issues was valid. We didn't have money or weapons. But they were, probably closer than ever before, to a full scale war, an Indian war. I'm happy that it didn't happen because a lot of people on both sides would have died. I can't say that would have helped my people. I don't think so. I spoke with different people who wanted us to help arm them. They wanted to throw out those people, the invaders of their nation. In the deepest part of myself, I'm happy that it wasn't possible, that it didn't happen, because we would have lost a lot of people. We also think we would have gotten a lot of them.

DW: Didn't some residents of Pine Ridge fire on a military helicopter on July 4?

LP: Yes, that supports what I was saying about having a lot of groups that wanted to throw out the invaders. They had helicopters. It was a military invasion.

DW: A month later, did you, Bob and some of the others go to Crow Dog's Paradise for the Sun Dance?

LP: Yes. Again, people approached me while I was in the Sun Dance, a lot of people who wanted me to arm them, who wanted to fight. It was a very exciting moment. It was interesting to feel and be witness to all the hostility and anger of the Sioux towards the United States government. They literally wanted to take up arms and go to war. They felt they had that pride and that it was the moment to go up to the witness stand and make declarations. It was time to show the world that the people of Oglala were willing to fight for what was theirs, what by right was theirs. Given to them by the Creator. The right to be a nation, the right to have control of our destiny. It was a very exciting and interesting moment. Part of my history, part of my life. I am proud to have been a part of that.

DW: I don't think people understand how desperate the people were, their desire to take up arms.

LP: Well, I think your readers in Czechoslovakia can identify with what I'm saying because they have experienced it in their history, whether under the monarchies or communism. My only fear for the Czechs is that they'll believe the propaganda issued by the United States, that is, the idea that this is the best system in the world and that they should move directly towards it, because this system is really bad and cruel. This is the reason that we have, what people are saying, six million people living in the streets at the time, millions of people living in the street! There's a reason for that and it's because of the greed and disregard for humanity of the capitalist system. We had crossed its path, the Indians were in its way. We had to be eliminated, one way or another.

DW: Do you think one of the reasons (for the situation at Pine Ridge) was the discovery of uranium at Sheep Mountain Table?

LP: They always let us keep it--they gave it to us because that land belonged to us, but in every case, they let us keep certain areas of land because they were dry and useless, while non-Indian people took away our best farm land so that foreigners could farm it. There are zones like the Red River Valley in North Dakota, which all belonged to the land of my people. All the soil, the topsoil, is probably the best in the United States, if not the world. It's eight feet deep. They stole all of it. This is the kind of fertile land they took. The Red River Valley is in North Dakota, and they took all of it and gave us arid lands, the ones they let us keep. Well, what happened, at the turn of the century was when the government discovered that they arid lands were rich in mineral resources, so they continued this land-stealing. The extermination of my people continues, because they're finding minerals, the ones they need. Consider the Black Hills, not just for the Sioux, but for a large number of tribes they are sacred lands. They were our sacred lands for thousands of years. Cheyenne, Arapaho, different tribes used the Black Hills as sacred lands. The United States government was trying to give us thirty million dollars for them. Obligating us to take thirty million dollars and they are rich in incalculable thousands of millions of dollars in minerals. Without counting the tourists and other businesses. They are telling us we have to sell the Black Hills. We have to sell them. The majority of Lakota people, of all the groups, say no. We don't want your money, we want you to give us back our sacred lands.

DW: Are people still refusing to accept the money?

LP: Yes. Recently, about a week ago, they was another survey, and overwhelmingly, I thinking only one out of ten want to accept the money. I am very proud of that, that our people say no. We don't want to sell it. The thirty million that the Supreme Court decided on in the late seventies, that yes, they had robbed us of the land illegally, but that we have to accept the thirty million dollars that they want to give us for it. It's been in the bank since then, and now I think it's up to a hundred and fifty million, because of interest, but still it's nothing compared with what they've taken out in mineral resources. You're talking about thousands of millions of dollars. There's an approximate amount estimated by the United States government, because the Black Hills are worth more than thirty million dollars, with natural resources and mineral which I've never heard of, that are used in their space capsules. So, the struggle goes on. Nothing has changed for us. We still live in zones with the highest rates of unemployment, alcoholism, crime; still the highest, compared with populations in other areas of the country. They still deny us what is ours by right of the Creator. The struggle goes on. Nothing is changing. We have gotten something. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that everything is the same as it was twenty years ago when we started the American Indian Movement, when my generation started up the American Indian Movement. We have achieved some things in the sense that we have gotten more control over our lives, more sovereignty rights. Recently, about a month ago, several tribal leaders met with the President about a proclamation by his administration saying that his administration would begin to relate with the Indian nations in terms of international relations. So, we are progressing.

DW: It seems like there was progress in the Black Hills in the people getting the land returned, instead of taking the money. Twenty years ago people seemed more interested in the money.

LP: Yeah, it was pretty across the board. The high percentages were enormous, yes, the people wanted to accept the money because they really believed they were never going to get the land back. The government was going to totally refuse--and that's what they did.   They were right. Our position against this was, yes, we have to change public opinion. We have to educate the public in this sense. We have to let people know what the Black Hills mean to us. It isn't just a lump of earth that we want them to give back: these are our sacred lands. For years, we have been able to educate a lot of people, unfortunately it's still not enough, especially here, in the United States. One of the things we've learned is that the Europeans are more understanding of Indians than Americans are. So we need to concentrate on them first. Tell them: "Look, you have to pressure your leaders so that they pressure these leaders and then we'll concentrate on educating the public here in the United States." And we're doing it through books, television programs, whatever it takes. I am very proud to say that my case has had an important role in this. Almost everything written about me or broadcast about me has influenced this issue. So we are doing what we tried to do twenty years ago, which was educate the public of the United States. A lot of people respond saying,"Oh well, we didn't know what the Black Hills meant to the Sioux."

DW: Is the Black Hills Alliance still operating?

LP: I don't think so. There are different Black Hills groups organizing now, but I don't think they (the BHA) are still going.

DW: Is mining still a big problem in the Black Hills?

LP: Sure. Our traditional beliefs are that we really don't want any kind of destruction of our mother earth. But some of us understand that we need to modernize. Let's say that, for example, that we win, that they return the Black Hills to us, there's going to be a big controversy among us about whether we should let them continue to extract minerals from there. One of them is uranium. We know that uranium is very, very dangerous. There's going to be a big battle. There will be some of us who want to do it because of the economics--money. We need money to build a nation. To build an economy we need to have economic resources. In this sense, there's going to be a big controversy, including among ourselves. But we also understand that we have to modernize our traditional system. We can't keep living like we're living now. We have to modernize our ideology, our philosophy, traditional philosophy. This is what I believe, this is what our ancestors told us. That we should never sell the Black Hills because the Black Hills have the capacity to take care of Lakota folks, of the Lakota people. With the Black Hills we could become a very prosperous nation. I think that's what they were telling us, I really believe it. They were talking about this a hundred and fifty years ago, our leaders were telling us something. We have to accept times of change and modernize ourselves.

DW: You say that your case has done a lot for other issues. What do you think of "Dancing with Wolves," has that done anything for your case?

LP: Well, it's done a lot to educate people about what the old Lakota were and who they were. Again this is something I've been involved in. I was with Dennis Banks in Hollywood and we pressured celebrities to do this kind of movies. We said that we had to put an end to all the foolish John Wayne routines regarding the Indians. We have to make movies that portray correctly everything about what Indians are. It's a slow process. Twenty years later we see, finally, a movie like that. A positive side is that now the executives and the Hollywood people are saying that this kind of film can make money. So we hope that this will enable them to produce others. If we can do it like this, thinking optimistically, my film will be very educational and a lot of the things I'm talking about will appear in the film. It would be an illusion to think it will have an audience as big as the one for "Dancing with Wolves." It will be success in educating people...I hope.

DW: This year "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse" was re-edited. Has that been a big help for you?

LP: Oh yeah, it's quickly becoming a best-seller. They ran out of the first edition before it officially went on the market. It's still selling really fast. I hope that continues, naturally. It's a great book, objective, very well documented, and a must-read. Very well written. Peter Matthiessen is probably the best author around today. I mean he is less biased, whenever possible (laughs) I identify with that man. I love him. He and his wife are people I love a lot, that I would die for. There aren't a lot of people I'd do that for. Except for my people, of course. I would give my life for him. We've become very good friends.

DW: Do you think the controversy about the book has added years to your sentence?

LP: Sure. No doubt about that. In seven years we would have sold a lot of books, because it was going to be a best-seller even these days. So it was stopped. It slowed down our work of educating the population of America about who I am and what's happened. So yes, we were successful.

DW: Do you think this is a crucial moment for you and your case?

LP: Yes. And I have to admit, the progressive news publications in this country and all over the world have been very good to me since the beginning--they should be because we're all together in the same struggle. Our political ideology is basically the same. My people was the first socialist people in the world. We shared everything among ourselves very intimately. We worked very well together. The media have written really good stories about me. Of course some have irritated me, but it seems like that has ended. They are my only way out of here, they and mass protest. Without that protest I will be here the rest of my life. The only way to do it is through the media, that they expose what is happening to me, who I am and what has been done to my people.

DW: What feelings do you have about the fact that only Leftist press and Peter Matthiessen investigate your case? Everybody else seems scared about it.

LP: Well, the United States government claims it has a free press in this country, but that's a total lie. All the media are controlled by the government. A lot of media come down hard on people who say these things, but we know it's the truth, you know it's the truth.

DW: Yes,

LP: There is no free press in this country, no matter what they say, and that's part of it, that's the reason. I think the story finally came out because among my people the support has never let down, it's growing. There are still a lot of my people who don't know me, including at Pine Ridge, but the majority of them don't even know what's happening to themselves. You know, they watch MTV. The majority of the families are on the alcoholic route. For me it's hard to understand that some of the people interviewed said "We don't know who Leonard Peltier is." They have a radio station there. They get story after story about me. I tell myself they're not listening to the radio or watching television. My case has appeared on television and in the newspapers on numerous occasions. This tells me those people are living inside a kind of shell.

DW: That happens everywhere.

LP: I guess if you cause people to feel fear they will say things they don't believe, because of that fear.   I would say, comparing with the return of racism of non-Indians directed at Indians. I hear about tribal leaders, people I was associated with, getting their pictures taken with the media, shaking hands, but in private that call them what they are: a bunch of racist pigs. I heard them say things like: "oh, the government treats us fine," in front of the cameras, on television. The media is fooling us, and there is this fear, it's still there.

DW: How do you feel now that everything is changing and everyone wants to talk to you?

LP: Yeah, it really is starting to change--in my favor, I hope,--but it is change. It was time. It was time.

DW: Do you feel optimistic, nervous, or what are your feelings about the hearing next week in Fargo?

LP: Yes, I'm optimistic, just because of the fact that they're not going to be able to do to me what they did to me in the last hearings. In Bismarck, North Dakota, the last hearing I was at, in the most critical pieces of evidence used against me we were able to prove and expose that the whole thing was made up. However, there wasn't any coverage of it. They were able to cover it up, and they covered it up in cold blood. They verified that someone was falsifying what was written on the pages, things like that. That is to say, "it was the most critical evidence" against me. No, nothing happened, they were able to cover it up. This time, we're able, and we can,--and we must--we're going to fight--if they allow us to present everything, everything we want to present--I think we'll see more revelations. This they're not going to be able to cover up, because the media are going to be there to see what happens. We're going to be able to present everything and we have the facts and they will publish them.

DW: Is Benson going to be the judge?

LP: No, it's a magistrate named Karen Kline, she will preside, but Benson reserved the right to the final judgment. But we have other legal strategies we'll try to use there.

DW: Bob told me yesterday, last night, that this is the beginning of a very long process.

LP: Yes, it's not going to end there. It's going to be long even if we win there, it won't end there, that's not going to happen. I'll come back here. Karen Kline will take thirty to sixty days to make a decision, after which it has to go to Benson--if this strategy works. If it works, then it will go to another district judge in Bismarck, which will take another thirty to sixty days. Then it will be another thirty to sixty days, probably longer, for him to study it, to meet with the magistrate and all the rest of it. We're talking about another four to six months, if it goes that route. If not, Benson will review it, and he will be against me, so we're worried about the appellate court. The appellate court, basically, is one of the last legal opportunities, because I can't get anything out of the Supreme Court. They won't hear my case in the Supreme Court. If they get a hold of it, the only thing they'll do is make worse laws.

DW: Does that worry you, how it's moving further and further to the right?

LP: Of course. Sure. It would worry anybody anywhere in the world. What's happening in the United States greatly affects what happens in the rest of the world. They've already let the decision stand, so they can compel testimony and coerce confessions from people. Coerce is a bad word. They can go around beating someone, so you confess. Basically, we don't have any rights. It's a very serious and dangerous moment. Those fanatics in the Supreme Court...maybe it will provoke a revolution and we'll all get lucky...

DW: What's up with Duane Brewer? (8)

LP: There's two reasons, after analyzing and thinking about it, for the interviews of Duane Brewer. I was wondering why this man was offering himself up, putting his own liberty at risk, putting his own life at risk. To offer to admit that whole thing, what he's admitted in those interviews. Of course, naturally, I'm very happy that he's done it. I was really surprised that he would do such a thing. And there's two reasons why he's done it: 1) His conscience is bothering him, or 2) He feels so sure that the FBI and the Justice Department will protect him that he's not worried about going to jail or losing his freedom. I mean, admit to the murder, terrorist acts--which according to him he's committed--with no fear at all, brings me to the only possible conclusion: he doesn't feel any fear of being processed at any time, because of this protection. You've got a man who admits to the murder. You've got a man who seems proud of it, very proud. He doesn't hide it.

DW: Calling himself a "protector" of his people.

LP: Yes. He kills his own people, this is not being a true protector of his people. It's something, I honestly believe after thinking about it, trying to analyze it--I mean, I'm sure that the man isn't stupid, that he would admit something without thinking about the consequences.

DW: He also said things I hadn't heard before. He said that when they killed Pedro Bissonette he was carrying a rifle. Have you heard anything about this?

LP: Well, that was in the story the police were propagating. I really can't say, but I know that they didn't like Pedro. Everyone was afraid of Pedro. I think that's the reason they killed him. They were really afraid of him. He was very popular, had a lot of charisma, he was very eloquent.

DW: Brewer was talking about him, Brewer says he was very popular.

LP: He was someone they had to get rid of. Whether he had a rifle or not. I don't think he had one. I really think they killed him and the people who knew him think so too.

DW: Brewer the pistol was unloaded. It seems like he was trying to suggest a justification for firing it. Did you all know Byron de Sersa?

LP: Sure, of course.

DW: Was he a lawyer?

LP: Yes, a tribal lawyer. He was a good person.

DW: Was he the grandson of Black Elk?

LP: Yes, Duane Brewer also admitted to that (the murder of De Sersa).

DW: He says he loaned the weapon that was used to kill De Sersa.

LP: Yes. That's being an accessory to the crime. That was against the law, even in the 70's. You're responsible for your pistol if you give it to someone. Especially if you know they're going to use it in a violent way. People have gone to prison, here in the United States, for lending someone their car which was used to rob a bank. Clearly he had great protection. That's what we've been saying all along. As I said, I was pleased that he turned himself in, and gave a certain credibility to our claims.

DW: It's still very worrisome.

LP: Oh, it's very worrisome. There's no way to justify it, that he would be present and say that. Don't think I'm saying that he shouldn't be punished for it. I think he should be punished, he's still guilty. He's still a murderer. Personally, I think he shouldn't be tried in the white man's court. I think he should be taken care of by Indians: punished. It could be that happens some day; of course I don't want to know anything about it, but it will probably happen.

DW: It seems like he talks about this thing without absolutely no remorse.

LP: Well, that's what I was saying--I think there are two possible reasons--either he has no conscience, or he has no fear. He knows he has this great protection. He knows he'll never be processed for it. It's not likely that will happen. I mean that they (the FBI) are financing him, they were employing him.

DW: Speaking of the people of Pine Ridge, how do they feel now about the Goons? Have they healed from that?

LP: Yes, to a certain point. But you have to remember that they behaved in a really illegal way with their own people. So, that hatred, as you know, they killed a lot of people. That hatred is still here, to a certain point. There's isn't armed confrontation anymore, but if you kill my brother, it's going to take me a long, long time to forget it, if ever. That's the way it is. My brother or sister, is always going to be there. However, it could be we're shaking hands, but I'm going to look at you and think: "Right, you're the one responsible for taking away my brother, the life of my family members." That's always going to be there. It's no different between one nation and another. They can make peace treaties, but the hatred is still there.

DW: What's happening right now with AIM? It seems to be growing again. After the 70's, with the jailings and the deaths, it almost disappeared, but now it seems to be growing again. Do you think it is?

LP: Yes, that's very true. Look, the United States government thought it had totally destroyed AIM. We were happy that they thought so, because, basically, it left what the organizers and leaders had done: it left them alone. We started concentrating on different areas; especially with politicians, because we knew we would have more protection working with politicians. We kept growing this kind of political power, building relationships with certain politicians, involving ourselves. We have become a very powerful organization, in that sense. We've never concentrated, or even tried, to get more members.

DW: How do you feel now about your public persona? When you joined AIM you weren't a public figure like Dennis Banks or Russell Means, and now you are.

LP: Yeah, it's something I know and am afraid of. I hope that....well, I don't feel egotistic, I never have been, so that doesn't worry me. Me main worry is, that I don't want to get out and then fail the people who believe in me. I want to be able to carry myself with pride and dignity. There's going to be a lot of pressure on me, just for wanting to keep being myself, and be alone, that people leave me alone. I'm going to have this big battle going on inside myself. I want to paint. I want to be an artist. I just want to do that and I'm not going to be able to do it. I can't say no to the people. If they want me to go talk someplace, or whatever, whatever it is they want me to do, I'm going to do it. If not, I'd be failing them. So I understand that I'll have to do these things. I hope I'll be able to do it without big problems.

DW: What is it about you that inspires such loyalty? Everyone seems to have done so much for you. Why?

LP: Well, as everybody says, I'm a pretty nice guy.

DW: Yeah (laughs)

LP: (Laughing). I don't think I'm any different from anybody else. At the bottom of my heart I'm not a bad person, or cruel, or greedy. I know that. I like to laugh. I like to have fun, to be nice to people and affectionate. Maybe it's that. I'm also not afraid to fight. I've never been afraid of fighting--no matter what it was about. Maybe that's a problem. The people don't understand, at least non-Indian people, within the circles I've traveled in and among my own people, I've always had the same kind of popularity I have now. Even among people I don't know, it's always been that way. Like one woman said when I was arrested and they pronounced me guilty, she told me: "Okay, Leonard. I want you to know that we're going to fight for you for the rest of our lives, until we get you out of jail. The United States government doesn't know who they did this to." I guess she was telling me that they feel more for me than what they normally feel for any other person or other Indian. I don't know. That's all I can say. (laughing) I'm happy! ***************************

NOTES

1. On November 20, 1969, a group of American Indians, called "Indians of All the Tribes," began an occupation in the old prison on Alcatraz Island, in the San Francisco Bay. Their purpose was to build a cultural center according to the clauses of a treaty that allowed certain tribes to occupy the land that the federal government had abandoned. The center was going to be used for studies on traditional religion, medicine and government. "We have to conserve our old ways of life. This is the first and most important reason why we went to Alcatraz Island," reads one of the manifestos. The Indians were also aware that the old, maximum security prison would be a perfect place for the center, since it was so similar to their reservations. On June 14, 1971, the federal police landed on the island and arrested all the occupants.

2. "The Trail of Broken Treaties." In 1972 numerous Indians from all over the United States went to Washington, DC, to protest the continual lack of compliance on the part of the United States government with the treaties signed with the Indian nations. The government promised them lodging, which turned out to be a rat-infested basement; the young activists responded by occupying the central headquarters of the Bureau of Indian Affairs in Washington. They only left the building when they were given the money to pay for lodging, food and the return trip, as well as the promise of a later meeting to hear their grievances, which has never taken place.

3. Arrival of Christopher Columbus in America, October 12, 1492

4. Another occupation by AIM of land that had been abandoned by the State, similar to that of Alcatraz.

5. High chief of the Lakota from the 30's until his death in 1989, at the age of 99. Despite his importance as chief and spiritual man, his house was destroyed as a consequence of the fire started by the Goons in the 70's.

6. Supposedly, the FBI had more evidence against Jimmy Eagle than any other person, in relation to the death of the two agents. All of the charges against him, however, were dropped in order to concentrate all their efforts on the accusations against Peltier.

7. There is no other way to describe the reaction of the FBI to the death of the two agents--it was a total invasion. Even before the FBI had information about the death of Collier and Williams, more than a hundred specially-trained agents flew to Pine Ridge from the distant states of Colorado, Virginia and Minnesota. Not satisfied with their paramilitary activities, the FBI wanted to have real military personnel, as demonstrated in the following excerpt of a teletype dated June 27, 1975: "Mr. Kelley (director of the FBI) instructed that, as the governor of South Dakota had offered the services of the National Guard soldiers, we should ask him to make good on his offer in order to carry out control and surveillance jobs in the vicinity to impede the concentration of AIM members, other Indians or onlookers." The Civil Rights Commission of the United States indicated that this kind of invasion, under the pretext of a murder investigation, would not be tolerated in any other community in the country. They only thing the FBI achieved with these tactics was to turn the entire reservation against them.

8. He was part of the BIA police and leader of the Goons. In an interview in 1986, he detailed the atrocities committed by the Goons, as well as the involvement and support of the FBI.

NUEVO AMANECER PRESS reminds our readers that right now, many people in various countries are fasting to demand that the United States government allow indigenous leader Leonard Peltier, unjustly imprisoned, to receive the medical attention that his condition of constant pain requires.

WE DEMAND AN END TO THE TORTURE OF LEONARD PELTIER, POLITICAL PRISONER OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

N.A.P.



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